Halton Arp Discussions
Halton Arp Discussions: Can we explain the Quantisation of Redshift using Plasma Redshift?
my split comment together:
1 hour video requires 2 comments to fit in 8K limit. Comment 1
I must mention Arp's book Seeing Red, which is explicitly about redshifts, provided spectra for only 2 possible quasars, these from a double lobed galaxy NGC 4258, and none for any galaxies mentioned.
I will include below links to several examples of quasar spectra.
This video is looking at "Arp's Evidence" so it is critical to recognize Arp used a non-representative sample of quasars.
The Lyman-alpha forest is mentioned often in the video.
That forest is not prominent in Arp's sample so comparing Arp's set to others becomes important..
"the Lyman-alpha forest is a series of absorption lines in the spectra of distant quasars arising from the Lyman-alpha electron transition of the neutral hydrogen atom. As the light travels through multiple gas clouds with different redshifts, multiple absorption lines are formed."
The forest is only absorption line.
Comments in the video mention its specrum; it emits no spectrum.
Unlike the video I will lead with some background, then address the video.
Here is my brief description of a quasar.
Its core is a plasmoid, just like at the core of M87, imaged in April 2020. (also M87 emits jets and some quasars emit jets.
The plasmoid generates synchrotron radiation, which is a relatively flat distribution of frequencies. In M87 and in many quasars, the span is from X-ray to infrared. A less energetic plasmoid might peak below X-ray or high ultraviolet.
A quasar spectrum is dominated by emission lines combining with the continuum of the plasmoid radiation.
All emission lines result from electron captures, involving either ions or protons.
When an ion captures an electron and generates its emission line, both the element and its ionization state must be identified to determine the shift of a particular line.
In my opinion, this naming is too complicated. Roman numerals after the element describe its ionization. O I means neutral oxygen, O II means singly ionized oxygen (or lost one electron), O III means doubly ionized oxygen and C IV means triply ionized carbon. For reference, H II means a proton.
When a proton captures an electron the electron can occupy one of several orbitals. Either the Lyman or Balmer series are most common with the Paschen series being rare.
To add confusion, both "H" or "Hydrogen" lines are given similar names.
The n number used below comes from the Bohr model where n=1 is the atom's ground state.
The set of transitions from n ≥ 3 to n = 2 is called the Balmer series and its members are named sequentially by Greek letters:
n = 3 to n = 2 is called Balmer-alpha or H-alpha,
n = 4 to n = 2 is called Balmer-beta or H-beta,
n = 5 to n = 2 is called Balmer-gamma or H-gamma, etc.
For the Lyman series the naming convention is:
n = 2 to n = 1 is called Lyman-alpha,
n = 3 to n = 1 is called Lyman-beta, etc.
Lyman-alpha is highest energy state change while Lyman-beta is the second highest.
It is important to note each named line has a specific wave length. This naming detail is critical with quasars.
In a spectrogram, lines are identified as either H- or Ly- or B- before the Greek letter. The combination must be correct or the z calculation is different (or wrong).
When a single emission line is noted in the spectrogram, it must be assigned to both an element and its state of ionization. Some names are mentioned below.
Let's consider Arp's evidence, compared to another
From Arp's book Seeing Red:
From Caltech study, their typical quasar:
link - image
This Caltech figure is at 2:14 in the video.
A quick visual comparison reveals Arp's quasar is simpler.
East Lobe has a few emission lines on the contunuum: Fe II, Mg II, Ne V, Ne III, H-beta,O III, and several with no identification at the far right.
West Lobe has a few emission lines on the contunuum: Mg II, Ne V, O II, H-beta,O III, H-alpha, followed by several with no identification.
There are no apparent absorption lines in either spectrum. There is no Lyman-forest.
Also, there is no Ly-alpha emission line identified in either.
Here is the problem with both quasars. We should assign something to those lines at the right. Being there, they must have a red shift so their assignment affects the z.
The East Lobe has z = 0.653, calculated from the metallic lines.
The West Lobe has z = 0.398, calculated from the metallic lines.
The East Lobe can have the H-alpha assigned to the unidentified line to the right of the O III line. its result was not used; it is z = 6.65.
The West Lobe has the H-alpha identified but its z value was not used; it is z = 6.5.
It is important with red shifts where the right end of the data ends. Arp's figures end at 10,000 A.
The continuum continues past the end. If the missing Lyman-alpha is red shifted off the end then these lobes have even higher z values.
Arp's evidence has uncertain red shifts.
from an astronomer in France, the spectrograms for 3C 273 are noteworthy. It was the first quasar to be identified. According to Wikipedia, it has z = 0.158
Figure 12 is a spectrogram of 3C 273 published in 1989.
Figure 13 is a spectrogram of 3C 273 published in 1992.
If H-alpha is at 7600, then z= 0.158, as published.
This figure has a rough line to represent the continuum enabling the emission lines (above) and absorption lines (below) to be apparent. There is no apparent Lyman forest at this quasar.
The 1989 figure has H-alpha, H-beta, H-gamma, O III, and some not identified. This figure cuts off at 4000. The Ca II lines are between 3900 and 4000.
This must be pointed out:
If the H-alpha at 7600 were assigned to Lyman-alpha then this quasar z value changes from 0.0158 to 5.21.
Caltech identified the hydrogen emission line with the highest intensity as Lyman-alpha.
The 1989 and 1992 publications used H-alpha line which results in a lower z value.
Astronomers must agree on the identification of hydrogen emission lines in quasars.
Very few spectra are public. This neglect makes it impossible to see how the quasar z values were calculated.
This crucial when using Arp's "evidence."
Here is a summary so far:
The Caltech "typical" quasar has a very prominent emission line identified as Ly-alpha and z=1.34 is the result.
This spectrum shows a Lyman forest to the left of an intense Lyman-alpha emission line.
That line literally marks creation of hydrogen atoms.
Astronomers are confronted with explaining the hydrogen which should have departed since the big bang.
The quasar is actually making much hydrogen as many incoming protons capture electrons from the plasmoid.
The published z value for any quasar could be either from the ions capturing electrons or from protons capturing electrons..
The protons are lighter, and seem to have a higher velcity resulting in the measured higher z value.
From the z values in the images and figures in Arp's book, the quasar z values are always < 2 so it is safe to conclude Arp always used the metallic ion red shift.
Therefore his quantized red shift behavior results from changes in the quasar's cloud of metallic ions.
I checked the definition of plasma red shift in the site plasma-universe.
1) cosmological red shift is impossible nonsense. Red and blue shifts can occur only at the moment of absorption or emission during the energy transfer at that moment. No shift can occur at another time.
2) Plasma red shift is like cosmological red shift which is a mistake.
Plasma red shift attempts to achieve a full spectrum red shift by transferring some of the energy to the inter-galactic plasma.
This ignores the observed quasar spectra. Individual emission lines are red shifted at the moment of emission.
Plasma red shift cannot target specific wave lengths for specific rlements, like oxygen and magnesium. Plasma red shift cannot apply!
The possible quantization of the clouds of metallic ions is a result of their dispersion.
The typical quasar with the Lyman forest and z = 1.34 has a mix of clouds of metals and hydrogen. The metals can changw from ion to neutral. Explaining the actual 3-D motions, measurable by Doppler ONLY in the line of sight is very difficult with incomplete data.
Either z value of the 2 (hydrogen or metals) for a quasar cannot be treated as a number to be explained by a mechanism affecting all photons from the quasar.
At 2:37 of the video:
Note: Every quasar emits synchrotron radiation which is somewhat flat. All the lines are from intervening atoms. The Lyman-alpha forest causes a spread of red shifts from the individual atoms, not as a cohesive cloud. The clouds emit nothing. Their atoms absorb light resulting in red shifted lines when the cloud approaches the quasar. This spread of velocities results in a long dip.
At 6:26 The spectra is dominated by emission lines. The forest is trivial and has no effect on the z value.
At 7:43 Recombination for emission lines is trivial.
At 8:20 An expanding shell toward us must be blue shifted so this idea is wrong for a red shift.I know of no red shift shell.
There has been no report of ultraviolet shells from recombinations.
At 12:45 forest is only hydrogen absorption lines red shifted by those atoms' velocities.
You missed the figure shown with the forest is NOT like any of Arp's quasars. In his book he tries to explain only one red shift which is coming from the metallic ions.
The astronomers have a problem with the Lyman forest because a cloud of neutral hydrogen shoul dissipate from the UV from the plasmoid.
In my copy of Seeing Red, I find no references to red shifted arcs.
If they are red shifted hydrogen emission lines, the arc is an arc of protons moving toward the center, away from us. More details are needed.
I heard nothing convincing about shock fronts here. Whenever I hear meteorological terms I assume astronomers are mistaken. Using such terms here needs better detail.
Recombination cannot do a red shift when in our direction.
It cannot result in the observed spectrum.
One should have the spectra for each in this sequence from 0.0 to 1.96, to know whether all are only metallic ion shifts or whether there is a mix with proton shifts and whether any should have a much higher value, like z > 6, than published.
Arp's evidence is certainly not verified to follow consistent rules for the z value. His important first figure in his book revealed an apparent mistake with the z value.
At 17:16 Red shift values clump with both quasars and galaxies.
They are different mechanisms so this is an awkward comparison.
Galaxy red shifts are driven by hydrogen in the inter-galactic medium. Galaxies who are nearly adjacent and having the same IGM behavior in the line of sight should have a similar red shift. Galaxies cannot show a Doppler shift because only its stars are the light source which are individually in motion among billions, and mixed with clouds of dust and gas.
At 19:00 Recombination, which results in only ultraviolet emissions is not a workable conjecture for quasar red shifts which are from metallic ions or protons in motion.
These jets are confusing the red shift interpretation
Seyferts can eject jets and sometimes the jet could containa quasar. The quasar is a plasmoid with its cloud of metals. It has its red shifts from its ions and hydrogen creation. The quasar is not getting new transient red shifts as it moves through supposed shells.
At 22:39 I disagree with these sheets of luminous material from the galaxy being called a shock front. The diffused material out to an arc looks more like a distant arm of the galaxy rather than some explosive ejection. The arc requires plasma to create some structure. There is no "shock" in the near vacuum of space.
At 22:56, the conjecture is if a quasar is here...
I expect there is not and this is not a shock front interacting with quasars out there. Identifying any quasars around any of these galaxies is important. The video is about Arp's evidence and shock fronts are a diversion.
Arcs in distant galaxy clusters are consistently around giant elliptical galaxies. Thos arcs are never around spiral galaxies.
I have never found a claim the arcs are red shifted. If they are then whatever emission lines are from plasma is moving as a sphere toward the giant elliptical. I question this red shift arc claim.
At 28:53 Discussion returns to quantized red shifts but There are no data for any z value to determine whether the ion velocities change in increments or the protons.
One must remember the quasar red shift changes are the result of the separate processes of electron captures.
At 29:15 One must remember the host Seyfert provides the initial collection of metals to its quasars.
Seyferts do not have to be consistent among different clusters. Arp began with quasars around their common Seyfert.
At 35:44 NGC 7544
This might be a bad example because it is very unusual.
A pinwheel-shaped disk, rotating in a direction opposite to that of the galaxy, is found deep inside NGC 7252: it resembles a face-on spiral galaxy, yet it is only 10,000 light years across.
With whatever this galaxy is doing, I suggest it is a wrong one to included in this discussion.
At 38:41 Galaxy red shift is from the IGM. It has nothing to do with its stellar activity or electron density.
At 40:00 The quasar red shift is assumed to be its velocity. Everything in its spectrum is charges in motion. Nothing involves the quasar's actual motion.
No red shift of any galaxy or quasar ever indicates its true 3-D velocity.
The search for approaching quasars is a waste of time because all its behaviors cause a red shift. Nothing can be away from it to cause a blue shift of ithe entire quasar spectrum.
At 47:25 Plasma red shift must be discarded. If a quasar is directly in line with a galaxy behind it then both must get a plasma red shift. Galaxies do not have red observed shift shells from electron shells in the line of sight.
At 49:19 No! There is never a Doppler red shift from a quasar's velocity. Its red shift cannot indicate its velocity, but only its positive charged particles always moving toward it.